Flat Battery, can't open vehicle

[M80]

OK just seen your short reply, I'm a slow typerer.
Anyway I believe my last post to be correct. With the suggested screw driver try touching to that terminal.
I can see that you could easily contact to ground.

 

[tommymac]

Ok, thanks.

Just to make sure we get this right:

I have annotated the attached with numbers 1-6.

6 is where the wire that we just discussed, which wraps around the back, starts. This is the one you believe we can ignore.

5 is what I believed to be the plastic cover.

Where is it that you are suggesting we apply power ‘on the opposite side of the starter’?

 

[M80]

Bing, I think I've realised that the cable from above, wraps around the starter and connects to '6'.
Pull the cable and confirm that to be true.
Edit, that cable being '3'.

If that is the case then that is your +12 volts from the battery, for you to conect to.

 

[tommymac]

Bing, I think I've realised that the cable from above, wraps around the starter and connects to '6'.
Pull the cable and confirm that to be true.
Edit, that cable being '3'.

If that is the case then that is your +12 volts from the battery, for you to conect to.

Hmmm... really can’t say for sure. Definitely wraps around the back and appears to come back. Little play in it, so must be fixed to something. I just can’t get my fingers in there, nor my ‘phone to take a pic.

What is the thinking now?

 

[M80]

If you touch 12 +ve to '6', and it's correct, you will open your car.
You may hear modules buzz into life with the enregy you provide.

If it's not then the starter would try to spin, but not really an issue.
But looking at that I would touch your 12v +ve to '6', as it looks to be the cable wrapping round and going up as '3'.

 

[tommymac]

If you touch 12 +ve to '6', and it's correct, you will open your car.
You may hear modules buzz into life with the enregy you provide.

If it's not then the starter would try to spin, but not really an issue.
But looking at that I would touch your 12v +ve to '6', as it looks to be the cable wrapping round and going up as '3'.

Great, that appears to be the easier one. I think it will have to be a screwdriver job, as I won't get a clamp in there. Let's sort out some electrical tape and rubber gloves, before the light goes.

And the negative can go anywhere on the metalwork?

 

[M80]

-ve on any convenient exposed metal of the engine.
This is 12 volts so you chance of you feeling a shock.
The only danger is the shorting, flashing and possible over heating. But it doesn't sound like your donor would put out enough current to be a danger.

The only gloves you need is to keep your hands clean.

 

[M80]

Will your smart charger give a voltage readout of the 'flat' battery?
It would be interesting and perhaps useful to know.

And if so you might have used that to confirm the correct terminal.

 

[tommymac]

Skies have opened. Already feel uneasy about this electrical stuff, I’m not going to do it in the pouring rain. Sadly it has to wait until tomorrow now.

Thanks again for all the assistance, especially M80, hopefully we’ll close this off tomorrow.

 

[RhodieBill]

Hi. Sorry, have been away...... All I know is, is that the Live where it connect to the Solenoid always has a Cap so it cannot be shorted accidentally as it's always live.. The other cable you have indicated is the feed to the starter motor. On the Solenoid there is a smaller wire, this is for the trigger signal to the solenoid to activate it, which then activated the Starter.
The only reason I know all this is because on my C180K Coupe I thought I had a dead battery - engine wouldn't turn. I called the AA and he checked to see if there was 12+V going to the Solenoid. He told me the cable to the solenoid with the cap on it is a permanent live 12v supply. He ascertained that was 12.8V on that supply indicating the Starter was jigged. I just replaced the starter.

This is how come I know what I know what I'm telling you.

Hopefully this diagram will help.... You will see one cable is connected to the Battery directly.

NB. I apologise that I couldn't answer and as often as others here.

 

[tommymac]

Hi. Sorry, have been away...... All I know is, is that the Live where it connect to the Solenoid always has a Cap so it cannot be shorted accidentally as it's always live.. The other cable you have indicated is the feed to the starter motor. On the Solenoid there is a smaller wire, this is for the trigger signal to the solenoid to activate it, which then activated the Starter.
The only reason I know all this is because on my C180K Coupe I thought I had a dead battery - engine wouldn't turn. I called the AA and he checked to see if there was 12+V going to the Solenoid. He told me the cable to the solenoid with the cap on it is a permanent live 12v supply. He ascertained that was 12.8V on that supply indicating the Starter was jigged. I just replaced the starter.

This is how come I know what I know what I'm telling you.

Hopefully this diagram will help.... You will see one cable is connected to the Battery directly.

NB. I apologise that I couldn't answer and as often as others here.

Thanks for getting back Bill, and for the picture. It's not too late, as I've put off applying the power until tomorrow, hoping the weather will improve.

Not clear on where you are saying we should apply the power. Presumably the battery cable terminal (which I think corresponded to number 6 on my picture)? Just wanted to double check this.

 

[LostKiwi]

As above. Item 5 in your pic is live. 6 is solenoid engagement. Circuit 30 in my pic (with the red arrow) is live.

 

[Tony Dyson]

Thanks for getting back Bill, and for the picture. It's not too late, as I've put off applying the power until tomorrow, hoping the weather will improve.

Not clear on where you are saying we should apply the power. Presumably the battery cable terminal (which I think corresponded to number 6 on my picture)? Just wanted to double check this.

It looks to me like the terminal you're looking for is No: 05 on your picture, the one under the black cap, you should prise the cap off and test for a voltage for confirmation before you proceed.
Under normal circumstances a small charger wouldn't be powerful enough to turn the starter motor if you accidentally chose the wrong terminal but as I understand it your charger is also capable of jump starting big engines, so you don't really want to connect your ARTECK D29 to the wrong terminal.
ETA as LK above, Terminal 5 I believe is the one you want.

 

[tommymac]

Thanks Tony and Lost Kiwi, number 5 does appear to have a cap, let me see if i can prise it off tomorrow.

How would you suggest testing for a voltage?

This is my charger:

https://www.amazon.com/Arteck-18000mAh-Portable-External-Automotive/dp/B01LXC8SPF

What would be the likely impact of applying this to the wrong terminal?

 

[tommymac]

Must admit I'm feeling very uncomfortable about all these electrics, and tempted to think again about the bonnet release. Does anyone have any information on where this runs around the engine compartment, to get to the hood? Can I access it from the offside wheel arch for instance, if I take the guards off there?

 

[LostKiwi]

Thanks Tony and Lost Kiwi, number 5 does appear to have a cap, let me see if i can prise it off tomorrow.

How would you suggest testing for a voltage?

This is my charger:

https://www.amazon.com/Arteck-18000mAh-Portable-External-Automotive/dp/B01LXC8SPF

What would be the likely impact of applying this to the wrong terminal?

The cap probably has clips and lugs either side that need prising out with a small screw driver. That said gentle force will open it up without too many issues.
If you apply 12v to 6 you'll hear a load clack or clunk as the solenoid pulls in. Not a problem. Just a little frightening if you aren't expecting it. Applying to the other one will short the charger (not a good idea).
The stud post on the solenoid is 8mm. You may not get the clamps onto it (in fact I'd bet you won't). You don't need much power to open the locks so I'd suggest getting a length of wire, baring about 2" and wrapping it around the red clamp on your booster (it's a battery booster not a charger). Bare about 1/4" of the other end of the piece of wire and hold onto the stud on the back of the solenoid. When sure it's in the right place connect the black clamp to the engine metal and have someone try the key.
This method enables a very quick disconnect if needed.

 

[tommymac]

The cap probably has clips and lugs either side that need prising out with a small screw driver. That said gentle force will open it up without too many issues.
If you apply 12v to 6 you'll hear a load clack or clunk as the solenoid pulls in. Not a problem. Just a little frightening if you aren't expecting it. Applying to the other one will short the charger (not a good idea).
The stud post on the solenoid is 8mm. You may not get the clamps onto it (in fact I'd bet you won't). You don't need much power to open the locks so I'd suggest getting a length of wire, baring about 2" and wrapping it around the red clamp on your booster (it's a battery booster not a charger). Bare about 1/4" of the other end of the piece of wire and hold onto the stud on the back of the solenoid. When sure it's in the right place connect the black clamp to the engine metal and have someone try the key.
This method enables a very quick disconnect if needed.

sorry lost kiwi, are you saying apply it to 6 now, not 5? Finding this all extremely confusing and stressful.

 

[LostKiwi]

sorry lost kiwi, are you saying apply it to 6 now, not 5? Finding this all extremely confusing and stressful.

No - you asked what would happen if you applied to the wrong terminal (6).
Terminal 5 is the one you want.

Where are you based?

 

[tommymac]

No - you asked what would happen if you applied to the wrong terminal (6).
Terminal 5 is the one you want.

Where are you based?

Ok, understood, thanks. Am confused though by your line: "If you apply 12v to 6 you'll hear a load clack or clunk as the solenoid pulls in. Not a problem. Just a little frightening if you aren't expecting it. Applying to the other one will short the charger"; what do you mean by "the other one".

I'm in West Kent.

 

[LostKiwi]

Ok. 4 on your pic will fire up the starter motor (but it won't be engaged so will just spin, but it's very high current so beware). 6 engages the starter solenoid with a large clack or clunk, but as there isn't 12v on 4 at the same time the engine won't turn over. 5 is the one you want. You may have a small spark as it connects but that's down to a few modules powering up and the booster trying to charge the battery.
Anywhere else will be a direct short across the booster and must be avoided.